Evoscan/MUTIII Developer Question

User topics relating to software that logs data from ECUs

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Evoscan/MUTIII Developer Question

Postby BarryC » Thu Dec 21, 2006 3:25 am

I read somewhere that the Evoscan was based on the same protocol that the MUTIII tool uses,
If so could it possible to use the Evoscan to communicate to the AYC ECU and allow users to drive the Hydraulic pump manually to bleed the hydraulic lines as required every 5000 Miles according to Mitsubishi for GSR models only,
as this is a big issue here as it means a trip to the Stealer or someone else who has a MUTII tool and that is usually an expensive day out,
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Re: Evoscan/MUTIII Developer Question

Postby Fitz » Thu Dec 21, 2006 8:13 am

BarryC wrote:I read somewhere that the Evoscan was based on the same protocol that the MUTIII tool uses,
If so could it possible to use the Evoscan to communicate to the AYC ECU and allow users to drive the Hydraulic pump manually to bleed the hydraulic lines as required every 5000 Miles according to Mitsubishi for GSR models only,
as this is a big issue here as it means a trip to the Stealer or someone else who has a MUTII tool and that is usually an expensive day out,


It had been my intent to extend the CableTools control (which is how LogWorks does MUT-III logging via an OpenPort cable) to include diagnostic services for each supported protocol (ISO 9141, KWP 2000, SSM, MUT). However, between work and my committment to a Java port of our MTS SDK, I won't get a chance to look at that until January.

However, it is open source (http://svn.enginuity.com/cabletools), so if someone wants to get an early start they can drop me a note. I had some ideas on how to present diag/service functionality in a protocol independant way.

-jjf
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Postby MalibuJack » Thu Dec 21, 2006 9:37 am

Programmatically its possible with any of the MUT loggers, as you have the ability to do a slow init to access any of the available modules that are capable of communicating.

This includes the AYC module, Immobilizer module, etc.. Unfortunately very little is know about the protocol or communications beyond the MUT-III logging to the ECU itself.

Evo4Mad probably has the most data, however he has not shared much of it, probably because the data is incomplete for some vehicles.
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Postby Fitz » Thu Dec 21, 2006 11:28 am

MalibuJack wrote:Programmatically its possible with any of the MUT loggers, as you have the ability to do a slow init to access any of the available modules that are capable of communicating.

This includes the AYC module, Immobilizer module, etc.. Unfortunately very little is know about the protocol or communications beyond the MUT-III logging to the ECU itself.

Evo4Mad probably has the most data, however he has not shared much of it, probably because the data is incomplete for some vehicles.


I suspect that he would be even less inclined to share with me. Back in August/September he requested our serial protocol doc, which we provided (you just have to ask), then posted in our forum that LC-1 readings are inaccurate. Klaus helped him figure out his programming/parsing problem of LC-1 serial data. Then at the beginning of December he claimed on evolutionm.net that he had confirmed that LC-1's had no serial port(!?), can't be used directly with a PC (!!?), and questioned the speed of our analog outputs (our measurement principle makes the analog output response times about 50-100 times faster than any other WB controller I'm aware of).

Now he has launched a new thread on our forum claiming new user frustration at a LC-1 and LogWorks, and a complaint that our tech support is unresponsive. That last one sent two people combing through spam filters and mail server logs, since customer care is rule 1 with our commander and chief.

Don't get me wrong, I respect honest criticism. And every product and company has room for improvement. But when you are helping someone interpret serial data from a product for their purposes, yet they are telling other people that the serial data does not exist - you start to wonder if you wronged someone in another life...

In any event, my thought was to do basically what I did in the first place. Beg a little access to the requisite tools, learn what I can in a short burst with a laptop and a scope, and put my results out for everyone to build on.

-jjf
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Postby MalibuJack » Thu Dec 21, 2006 11:38 am

I wouldn't take it too seriously. He's a nice guy, at one point he had told a few people, which had gotten back to me, that I had copied his source code to make my application, I based my code on the FTDI VB.NET sample code and some VBScript embedding and XML DOM example code I had from a code developers website.

I figured its nothing personal, and I share info with everyone, so I would assume he would do the same considering we're all trying to contribute to the community.

Its just the competative nature of developers I suppose..
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Postby RallyCam » Thu Dec 21, 2006 12:57 pm

You can bleed the AYC system without any tools (well OK, you do need a wrench to open the bleed nipple:D)

Just switch the ignition to "On" (with engine off!), and press the accelerator pedal to the floor and hold. this will switch the AYC pump On for a short period of time (2 sec or something like that).
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Postby BarryC » Fri Dec 22, 2006 10:29 am

nice one thanks
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Postby Evo4Mad » Sun Jan 07, 2007 12:38 pm

hey jjf, Yeah I had taken some comments that I had received from others towards innovate lc-1 capabilities, and I now have one myself and found that I was wrong, and it does indeed work with a serial port, although I was left high and dry by Innovate trying to get logworks to work with it, and I finally figured out that an SDK needed to be installed which was not mentioned in any innovate docs or forums. And found others on forums with the same problem. I was left to figure all this stuff out for myself, which I'm used to doing.

I have been asking for help on MUT stuff for over 4 yrs now, and I have never received anything from anyone else. I have shared my findings with others and now logworks and mitsilogger have the capabilities thanks to my efforts. I'm sorry its slow progress, but its better than waiting another 4yrs for someone else to figure all this out.
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Postby Fitz » Sun Jan 07, 2007 10:20 pm

Evo4Mad wrote:hey jjf, Yeah I had taken some comments that I had received from others towards innovate lc-1 capabilities, and I now have one myself and found that I was wrong, and it does indeed work with a serial port...


Let's be accurate. You posted a specific question about parsing the data from an LC-1 serial port back at the end of September (9/30/06) - (link).

Then, you specifically claimed that you had confirmed that LC-1s have no serial port at the beginning of December (12/9/05) - (link).

More oddly, you began talking about your own support for LC-1 serial output a day after Klaus pointed out your serial reading and parsing mistake, and continued to disucss LC-1 comm ports through Novemer (link).

Evo4Mad wrote:...although I was left high and dry by Innovate trying to get logworks to work with it, and I finally figured out that an SDK needed to be installed which was not mentioned in any innovate docs or forums. And found others on forums with the same problem. I was left to figure all this stuff out for myself, which I'm used to doing.


Yes, you did make that claim - during PRI - (link) but never responded when I explained to you that your technical assessment is impossible. The SDK is an ActiveX control, which searches the registry and then invokes the same DLL's used by LogWorks for communication with an LC-1. Similiarly, you never saw fit to provide a source domain for your alleged unanswered support emails so we could do a second search through the mail server logs (we take customer service very seriously).

Evo4Mad wrote:I have been asking for help on MUT stuff for over 4 yrs now, and I have never received anything from anyone else. I have shared my findings with others and now logworks and mitsilogger have the capabilities thanks to my efforts. I'm sorry its slow progress, but its better than waiting another 4yrs for someone else to figure all this out.


I'm sorry, this is the first time it has been intimated that any of my work has anything what so ever to do with yours. Certainly, when you last posted on our forum (link) you seemed to imply that ours was a wholly different implementation and presumably inferior to your own (once again, I addressed the actual technical aspects involved).

As far as rather or not MJ is deeply in your debt, I cannot say. From a little forum searching here and there it appears that his work has been pretty independant and open, but I could be wrong (and he has already noted above that you've accused him of copying your source).

As far as my implementation, I can safely say that my initial implementation has zero to do with you, MJ, Donour, or anyone else. It comes entirely from two one hour visits to a shop - armed with my trusty Tektronix o-scope and my laptop. In fact, the only IDs that I put in my protocol file were those I had directly deciphered from those experiments.

Every line of source is written from scratch - and publicly viewable. The only help that I have received has been from MJ, who was kind enough to answer my questions when I set out to add support for some of the ECU hacks that people were implementing in the Evo world, and, of course, users who have been kind enough to send me traces from a little test I wrote, which helped me debug cable/ecu combinations that I don't have ready access to.

If you think it is impossible to figure out basic logging functionality with a short session and the right tools, ask Naji. I did the same thing with his XEDE when he dropped by our office.

Frankly, both your attitude and behavior baffle me. With four years of effort, what possible difference could my few weeks of sporadic work in this area make? We've offered you nothing but support and encouragement when it came to augmenting your own work with our products, and all my efforts in this area are open source!

Mitsulogger, ecuEdit, ecuExplorer, Enginuity, etc. all would appear to be in the same basic position, but all those folks seem to either find the simple LogWorks plug-ins either irrelevant to their work, or a generally good thing for the community. Certainly I've received no resentment when it comes to direct contributions to their projects. In fact, the only hostility I have received has been from a salesman who doesn't even seem to know the relationship between lambda and AFR - and you.

-jjf
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Postby Evo4Mad » Tue Jan 09, 2007 7:00 pm

lol, you sure do have a lot of time to devote to this, this is just my hobby. I don't have the luxury of discussing threads like this :) Oh cool, I'll check out the logworks xml file and see if I can learn anything from it. thanks. And your Innovate wideband products are the best around for sure, you guys rock.
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Postby Fitz » Tue Jan 09, 2007 8:04 pm

Evo4Mad wrote:lol, you sure do have a lot of time to devote to this, this is just my hobby. I don't have the luxury of discussing threads like this :) Oh cool, I'll check out the logworks xml file and see if I can learn anything from it. thanks. And your Innovate wideband products are the best around for sure, you guys rock.


What are we supposed to do, ignore a claim of no customer service and missing features?

I have a day job, we have projects here at Motorsports and I also do development work for two other divisions. This is just a little extra 'hobby' time for me as well. But all accussations and complaints are taken vary seriously, regardless of the source or the circumstances.

Think about it, we are now selling widebands in the tens of thousands each year and, as of today, we have yet to charge for a single repair. Does that sound like a company that does not take customer service seriously?

On a different subject, why waste your time looking at the protocols.xml? It should be quite clear from the numerous threads, on numerous boards, that I am only providing a tool, source, and a starter list. Enthusiasts are expected to populate the protocol tables themselves (and have been).

There has never been any intent for LogWorks to replace market specific efforts like yours, only to provide more alternatives and options. I don't have 4 years to invest in Mitsubishi. In four weeks, off hours, I've done core logging support for MUT, SSM, OBD-II (9141 and KWP2000), MegaSquirt, and XEDE. This does not include time spent on Enginuity or my day job - which has included two trade shows and two project deadlines (oh yeah, throw the Holidays in there as well).

Obviously, I'm not looking for Guru status in any of these areas - just trying to make some small contributions. However, I do believe in the Golden Rule. You've flamed extensively when people have commented negatively on your progress or efforts - and you are shareware. I'm doing open source work, on my own time, for free. Perhaps you could extend me the same courtesy you openly demand from others?

-jjf
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Postby BarryC » Wed Jan 10, 2007 6:28 am

Could I ask another question is it possible to code into evoscan a remote start switch???
we could connect a remote switch to the laptop parallel port and start and stop the datalogger with it, it means you dont have to be fumbeling around with your laptop while trying to make a run.
Just an Idea,
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Postby Evo4Mad » Wed Jan 10, 2007 6:33 am

I currently use the shortcut key (ctrl-space) to start and stop the datalogger.. which is ok.

We might be able to hook up something to the RTS or DTR lines of the interface.. I'll have a think about it.
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