what about the tuner?

[calvinc]

with the discussion about GPL i think there is another flip-side that possibly nobody has considered - what about protecting the tuner and their intellectual knowledge?

currently the only free apps available are those that do diagnostics, but as soon as the flashing stuff becomes available it treads into a whole different arena. Ecutek has protected their tuner base by not allowing any user other than themselves to actually download an ECU ROM image. you can compare certain sections but never actually download the entire image. This protects the work of one tuner from another.

if we release apps that would allow even the most novice user to download their entire ECU ROM image then dont you think we could be harming the market we aim to free?

when you pay a tuner for a remap you are largely paying for their tuning knowledge and hopefully not the tools they use (licenses, etc). if said tuner knew that as soon as you drive away his map would be released into the public domain would it not compromise him:
a) doing his best work?
b) actually staying in the remap business?

i'm not sure how exactly the COBB model works and i'm under the impression that it allows users/tuners to share maps? if you can add to this please do.

based on this i'm considering adding a feature to my new app (which will encompass some flashing/editing options) that a tuner may choose to only allow himself to download the map of an ECU that he has uploaded. this will be a feature of the app and not the ECU.

i'm keen to hear what others think of this.
calvin.

[bofh]

Every song, and every bit of software is available on the net, yet people still buy it. Also, a custom tune is just that. Even two identical cars with the same mods may handle AFR and advance differently. What you are paying for is the tuners expertise, and his time. Also, do you trust a map you got off the net form "some guy" with your car? I don't even like the way some WARZ mess up some computers... Don't want to risk the Scooby. The other thing is why? Yes, I am sure we will eventually be able to download ANY image from a Subaru ECU. (If not your tool, some one will make it) But, all of them have some issues... While it would be nice from a learning perspective, I am here because no currently offered solution makes me happy. Just my 2 cents.

[Spiider]

^^Those were exactly my thoughts on it as well.

If the customer wants to go get a custom tune they still can, I think most people will still be paying for the tuners expertise and equipment, its the adjustments that won't cost anything to either the tuner or the car owner anymore. Not everyone owns the proper equipment, or possesses the expertise to properly tune their own car. Copying someone else's custom tune may be IMO the most dangerous thing you could do. The best thing would be to have a library of our own staged basemaps, conservatively tuned as a starting point for owners to use and tuners to modify.

We should be trying to provide these tools for free to everyone who owns a Suby or tunes a Suby and free them from the greedy bastards that change a couple bytes and charge us $1000.

[FrSTi]

with the discussion about GPL i think there is another flip-side that possibly nobody has considered - what about protecting the tuner and their intellectual knowledge?

currently the only free apps available are those that do diagnostics, but as soon as the flashing stuff becomes available it treads into a whole different arena. Ecutek has protected their tuner base by not allowing any user other than themselves to actually download an ECU ROM image. you can compare certain sections but never actually download the entire image. This protects the work of one tuner from another.

if we release apps that would allow even the most novice user to download their entire ECU ROM image then dont you think we could be harming the market we aim to free?

Hi mates,

Sorry, this is my first post in here, but I'll have some more time to introduce myself later on... I think this is a very interesting subject, and i get Calvinc point.
Just one thing, I'm not a pro-tuner in any way... just a Subaru fanatic

I had the same tought about "intellectual property" some time ago, while one of my friend had an expensive reflash done on his STi7 while my car was simply running an AVCR and similar boost... with exactly the same performance !
One day he came to my house and I went for some datalogin with his car to compare ignition, knock correction, afr and other intersting stuff... just to check what changes were made (or not) into his ECU.

And that is my point : basically, you can acces everything just loggin SSM plus a WB (and EGT)...
The EcuTek "keyed" maps prevent any dumb (dump ) tuner to paste and duplicate another professional work right after dumping it from an identical car... that's nice, otherwise I'm pretty sure some would do.
(Not to forget, the 2nd generation Prodrive PPP is Tek... this name and this experience is expensive to buy).

But this kind of protection will never stop the ones like us, looking for some specific values, and using SSM.
Except if there is any way to stop the SSM communication also (but well, the AFR should remain mesurable then )

Now that I also map cars by myself, absolutely not for business but by passion and for performance, I must admit I'm a little bit disapointed by the fact that people will be able to dump and copy every single ignition, boost and fuelling maps I set up... but...

I am convienced dumping is part of understanding... there's no way to copy neither to invent : it's a matter of for testing, mesuring and understanding.
Shall we blame here ? Huh ?

The only concern is for PnP upgrade such as the PPP... once dumped, it can be duplicated.
It's not really a performance reference for me (:lol:) but I would not be surprised if some stoopid duplicate it, getting the right tools.

[fastchip]

My thoughts..

First of all, I think 99% of the Scooby drivers are best off choosing COBB or Ecutek. Just pay & enjoy the extra performance. If I could get ST over here i would have immediately bought it.
The other 1% is reading this. We want to know more and tinker with the ECU ourselves. Maybe half of this 1% has actually the ability to this safe. The other half *THINK* they can. Tuning an engine properly involves alot more than using some tools. It all comes down to one thing: 'understanding what's going on with the use of the right tools in the right way'
Fortunately we can help each other too learn, to a certain degree, what is needed.

Off course every car runs best with a custom made mapping. This becomes even more important (mandatory) when you are tuning against the limits of certain components like turbo, intercooler, etc.
People who just flash the tuning files from somebody else are taking a huge risk destroying an engine !

As long as Colby doesn't release a 'professional' version of it's kernel with some way to encrypt the ROM data, there won't be a professional tuner investing time in making maps, to pose a serious threat for the competition at lower prices.

[Spiider]

^^I'm guessing a tuner.

Lets be more realistic here the real motivation behind this.

The tuners make hundreds of dollars per tune for being in bed with Ecutek and Cobb. I'm not talking about their time and equipment which we respect highly, I'm talking about their share of the flash licence profit.

I think your "just pay and enjoy the extra performance" statement sums it up nicely. How about the Cobb customer's who have lost power and driveability? Have you read the Nasioc postings?

Your 1/2 of 1% is just propaganda crap designed to scare the average joe away from touching his or her car. No one's car is going to blow up from being able to download, investigate and restore the ecu contents. Most people will be interested in conservative basemap type roms anyway if they have bolt on mods and are following the regular upgrade path.

You've got to drop the protectionist bs, and perhaps think through the process a bit. You are correct in that most people may never wish to tune their ecu themselves. What does this mean to your business? Probably even more people coming to you for a custom tune now that the price is cheaper. Unless you are only interested in making licencing fee money this should be a good thing for you.

I think part of the real motivation here is that the tuner guru prima donna's are afraid we will see whats behind the curtain and realise that they are only changing 1/2 of 1% of the rom file and are charging you $800 USD for the licencing for the priviledge.

[fastchip]

I WAS a small tuner (amongst other things) which did about 10 cars a year. I run a business in diagnostic tools nowadays.

Have you read the Nasioc postings?

No not really, if there are many people having problems with proper tuning of their Suburu. Then we need to get all relevant MAP data accessable for everyone, off course. So that there is an alternative to choose from. I have no personal experience with Ecutek nor Cobb. Therefore i was under the impression both products deliver what they promise. I fully agree with you that reflash pricing is way to high. If that is caused by licensing fee's or simple greedyness , I don't care. Let's hope we can do something about it.

Your 1/2 of 1% is just propaganda crap designed to scare the average joe away from touching his or her car. No one's car is going to blow up from being able to download, investigate and restore the ecu contents. Most people will be interested in conservative basemap type roms anyway if they have bolt on mods and are following the regular upgrade path.

I'm only saying that as long as there aren't good base MAPS here, users should be careful what they do with the reflash tool. [but they probably already knew that]

Unless you are only interested in making licencing fee money this should be a good thing for you.

As I said it's not my business anymore.
Instead of discussing here we both should be in our Subaru now making a BASE map for the readers here.

[Spiider]

My map is already posted online for anyone to download.

Firstly we are collecting stock roms, so that in the event of a mistake someone can get their ecu back to stock form.

I'm also been working part time evenings to research the tables we all need for tuning in the future. 2002 wrx is done, 2004 wrx is 99% done.

Basically I am doing everything I can to get the most free knowledge out to everyone thats interested in it.

[LGT-3-6]

Why isn't tuning considered work-for-hire? You pay for the person, the expertise, and the dyno time. Theoretically it isn't possible to run that tune on any different car safely.

Sure you can look at the work and perhaps gleam some insights, but this is no different than any other piece of work. Why should it be hidden or encrypted?